water pumping station

Below is the full conversation between Pip and Bo that was the source material for the above work. There is both the audio recording and the transcript( ai sic )

Pip: Oh,

Bo: What?

Pip: Was that a yawn?

Bo: Yeah.

Pip: Oh, okay.

Bo: Did you get the full ASMR experience?

Pip: I did get the full ASMR experience. It is the 19th of April and it is 1010:02 AM. And this is our first planning meeting for the project.

Bo: It sounds like we're doing a police interview.

Pip: It does. Yeah. Where were you on the night? No, we shouldn't do that. So, I thought that we might just record everything - like process as well as conversations and stuff. Just I don't know, it's a way of doing it since we're trying to create something about sound that seemed like a good idea - to record it. Rather than make notes of it. Yeah. Yeah.  what we said, when we talked to Jonny, was: What we would like to propose is a video work with Bo's original art as visuals and my writing is soundtrack. We're interested in making something about the way sound can be both agitating and calming. We'd like to explore, explore the noises we find challenging, as well as the ones we find joyful. We want to investigate the nature of these noises and what it is that thing sets them apart. We're interested in the visceral experience of listening that circumvents the logic mind and go straight to the body. Both Bo and I are sensitive to sound, the world is often a bit noisy for us. But also, I sometimes find a lot of peace and very loud noise. And Bo really enjoys music and immersive video games. Bo and I  will start by having a conversation about the dichotomy of noise being both agitating and calming, we'll record this conversation and excerpts of it might form some of my work, and may accompany the final work, then we'll work separately for a while riffing off the conversation we had coming together again, to integrate the two parts of the work will produce something around five minutes long, or maybe longer, or maybe more than one video. We aren't quite sure the length or number of the final thing. Is that okay? And Jonny wrote back, which I think, I think, is that, okay, if I ju st read Jonny's response, because I think it's really useful. Jonny said, This sounds like an awesome project. And I reckon a really interesting area of exploration. The dichotomy is real. For me, I was the kid who loved scraping their fingernails on the blackboard. I loved all of the sensations about it, including the response of others, but it was also an act of over stimulation and compulsion. I look forward to seeing how this progresses, everything you have suggested in this email is more than okay. So. And he's also asked for three things, which we might well, four things that we might do later, he needs a title, a square cover image, a brief bio, and an image for the bio. So yeah, those are the four things that he needs as well to keep in mind.

Bo: Yeah, yeah.

Pip: I don't think I mean, I don't know, how do you find that? Do you find it easier to work from a title?

Bo: Not really. I mean, whenever I make titles, it's usually the last thing I do, and it's the least important.  

Pip: Okay, that sounds good.

Bo: That's just my own personal feeling.

Pip: No, that sounds good. I think, um, I just everybody's different. I like some people like to work from a title and some people don't. So let's think about the title once we've done the other work, which I think is really, really good. Um, so I wonder, why don't we that process seems like it could work. And what we could do now is start to have that conversation.

Bo: Yeah.

Pip: Like maybe if we talked for a while, about that. And then we could go from there. Does that sound okay? Okay. So how about we start with this question, like, about what our relationships to sound? Like? I don't know. Like, when you think of the when you think of sound? What do you think about your reactions to sound or how it feels to hear?

Bo: I mean, sound is like, you know, how we have a very specific amount of tastes that we can taste obviously, like umami, sour, sweet, spicy, all of those. And then with smell, we also have a specific amount of things we can smell. It always felt like with sound, there's a lot more combinations. It feels like so I don't know I really think of it. Like I can think of a specific taste. If someone asked me to, like, oh, what's your favorite taste or what's a specific, like, think of a taste. But with sound, you can't really think of a specific sound, at least for me. Which I, I've always been fascinated by that idea that sound is such a broad spectrum of things. Like it's everything from the sound that a machine makes to the sound that a plant makes. And I've always found that really fascinating.

Pip: So part of your experience, like I often think about this, that part of my experience is also like, I know that on the color spectrum, there are things that are ultraviolet, and you know, that kind of thing. I often think that I'm also having an experience with the sounds that I can't hear you feel like that.

Bo: Yeah, I think like, especially as I've got older, because you know that thing about like, Oh, there's the sound that only people under 21 can hear. Yeah, like, as I've started to kind of age out of sounds, I guess is the way to put it. I have noticed that there is like a difference between like, the way that I reacted to sound as a child where I'm much more sensitive to it. And then as I grow up, kind of losing certain aspects of that sound. Like I'm Fig's  Dad, for instance, Andy, he has a, like lighter , that, um, just creates a little circuit between two like metal prongs, bronze rods, prongs, prongs.

Pip: Yeah.

Bo: But um, it makes a really high pitched sound. And only me, Fig and our friends could hear it when he was using it. And we were all like, that's awful. And he was like, I don't even know what you're talking about. I was like, Okay, then. But like, I have started to lose some of the like sounds that five year olds can hear, which I'm not mad about. But you know, it is kind of this whole other aspect of sound that gets lost at a certain age, which is sad, I guess.

Pip: Because I guess that's the other thing is that, like, I think I just think of like the work of like Ramond Atrobus , and there's a couple of other like performance artists who are Deaf /deaf and still managed to make amazing work about sound. So I think like, that really excites me as well. Because what you're talking about is like, I think that deafness is like the major disability that people suffer. I know, at least in America with a lot of people sort of coming home from war and stuff like that. There was a real peak in deafness. And I think that yeah, I think that this thing you're saying about aging out of sound like our relationship with sound is just changing all the time. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, what I love about the description you're making of sound is that, you know, we hear with lots of other things apart from our ears, maybe? Yeah, yeah.

Bo: Like, there's a whole thing of like, that idea that all artists can feel the music in their heart. Yeah. It's like, can they?

Pip: Maybe? I don't know. We'll have to find an artist who knows what did yeah.

Bo: Get dad on the phone?

Pip: Yeah, get dad on the phone. When you write music, do you hear feel it? And yeah, yeah.

Bo: But um, I've always been fascinated behind like, the relationships between people who are disabled, and then things that are related to their disability, like being blind, and the relationship between sight and that. And then what you were talking about with being deaf and the relationship between deafness or being hard of hearing and then sound. And I feel like often those people have the most interesting relationships to talk about and to read about. Because like, one thing that I've always been fascinated by is the writings of both deaf and blind people, especially blind people, and the way that they describe things. Like the whole thing of like, people who have sighted will, or sighted, yeah, this is there's a specific word for it that I'm I've lost at the moment.

Pip: That is the right word for it.

Bo: Maybe I'm really smart, maybe well, no. But um, the way that sighted people will explain like an apple is very much in description about what it looks like. Whereas with a blind person, they'll describe the feeling that it relates to the glossiness of the apple, whether it's hard or soft, kind of the imperfections they can feel in the skin. And I always feel like that creates a very interesting and very kind of, oh, no, there's a word. What's the word? Were like accessible. It's a very accessible way of writing. And I think that's always been fascinating for me is accessibility with disabilities within media. I like books and TV, and things like that.

Pip: Because I think I think, like, I think that like, there's this imagined normal for hearing if you don't, I mean, like, there's this imagined idea of how I think and well, in all life, this is sort of constructed normal of what our relationship is to sound, you know, and like, I think of those books that we used to read, like, when you were little, you know, like, where they'd have an oversized ear, usually a white person's ear and then, like, a drum beating over here, and then some, little sound waves coming toward the ear.  Yeah. And like, I just feel like, like, sound is so much more complicated than that. Like, I just think that thing you're saying even around, you know, the loss of certain frequencies and stuff like that. I think it's frequencies, I think is so interesting. You know, that alone shows us that nine people could be in a room and each one of them will be hearing something different, you know,

Bo: The same thing with like, color.

Pip: Yeah, exactly.

Bo: It's freaky.

Pip: Exactly. And like that thing as well. Like, that's not even taking into account. That's kind of like, the sound but then there's the, the other side, you know, it's not even taking into account the words that we're saying and the way that we might interpret those, you know what I mean? Like, which I think, is even more complicated. I just banged the thing.

Bo: Your legal pad.

Pip: My legal pad, yeah, I made a sound that's really worrying. Um, do you so do you feel? I noticed that when you walk places and stuff like that, you often have your noise cancelling headphones on? And you I'm not sure what you're listening to? What are you often listening to

Bo: A mix of a lot of different things. But I'll usually be listening to quite a upbeat song or something. Just because it helps me with walking. You know, like, especially if you listen to a fast tempo song, you get a place faster, usually.

Pip: So it's like creating your own little world within the world that Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I said your own little world. Oh, I guess it does. Yeah, no, like quite a small world compared with the big world.

Bo: I like the thing about the way that I listen to music because I listen to it with visuals in my mind. Like, it's very rare that I'll be walking somewhere and just listening to the music while taking in what's around me, and said, I'll be as you said, in my own little world.

Pip: Can you can you explain the title of that playlist to us?

Bo: The one about Dad?

Pip: No. What's it called walking through the apocalypse?

Bo: Oh. It's called something like a desolate walk through an apocalyptic world. Yeah. And it's basically a collection of songs that most of them are, like guitar centric. But like very much that kind of vibe of being alone in a world where you don't know whether there's other people alive, you don't know whether there's danger around. Found it, 'Songs to listen to as you walk through a dystopian world alone'.

Pip: What do you think you see that a lot of them will get has, what do you think it is about the sound of guitars in particular that summon that feeling?

Bo: I mean, I think cuz guitars are very much like especially acoustic guitars on an electronically  produced sound usually, that makes it so that they're very kind of timeless in that sense, because they've been around for so long. And pretty much as long as you can find one you can play it. And even if like, the whole world has gone to shit. You don't need a power outlet to produce that sound. And it's quite portable. Yep. Like, obviously, they're massive, but like.

Pip: Well they're relatively lighter.

Bo: Yeah that's the thing. It's because they're very light wood with a hollow interior. Yeah. And like that kind of idea of being able to because it's often like the traveling instrument. Yeah, that people have.

Pip: Yeah, I suppose it's gone from though. What do you call those things? The liar or the Yeah.

Bo: You can't carry a harp around.

Pip: No, no

Bo: But you can carry like a pan flute around.

Pip: Yeah. And I think that's what's interesting is how those first stories always had musical accompaniment.

Bo: Like a baud Exactly. Like it's kind of that instrument that cowboys usually have as well. Yeah. And you know, I'm living my cowboy fantasy.

Pip: You gotta love a good cowboy fantasy. Do you think there's anything specific about the quality of the noise that a guitar makes?

Bo: Yeah. I think like, guitars is so varied and the sound that they can make, but Um, I personally favor like the type of guitar that that dad has, which is a acoustic guitar. Yeah. Because they have quite a soft sound that can be utilized to make a sharp noise. But within a lot of songs, they are mostly used as kind of a calming lullaby. Like it's a very good accompaniment, to vocals, which are mostly kind of down or more sad or depressing.

Pip: I really, I think that's really interesting, because I don't know, like, I guitar always reminds me of a percussion instrument. Because it's kind of like a drum, it's got that drum. And I think that there's a beat to the plucking. You know, like, I know, it's melody, because you can move you can make different notes. But I just often think of that, that plucking kind of noise, I suppose strumming as well, but it can, it does often feel like motion, if you know what I mean. Like when you're talking about walking, it does often feel like, you know, like, almost like the bit of a drum that you're walking to.

Bo: I also think since like with guitars, you do have that very classic visual of what the strings look like to produce that sound of them vibrating. Whereas like with a piano, you obviously can't see the strings that are inside. Yeah.

Pip: Oh my god. The day I found out that piano was a percussion instrument was the greatest day of my life.

Bo: Yeah, I remember where I was. Which is, most people remember where they are on national tragedies. I remember where I was when I found that a piano was a stringed instrument.

Pip: Yeah, I just love it with the bang, bang. Those little hammers like smashed and down. Yeah, gotta be good

Bo: On the topic of instruments. Have you heard the theory? Why, but like, we consider violence to be one of the most beautiful and sad instruments.

Pip:  Oh, why is that?

Bo: It's because it's one of the instruments that sounds the closest to a human voice.

Pip: Oh, wow.

Bo: Yeah. There's this whole idea behind why violins are used in classical music to kind of simulate more voices almost like a choir when you don't have a human voice within it.

Pip: That is so true. Because like, when I think about, there's a few bands that I really like that are not what's the word I'm looking for? Like? I'm thinking about things like Mogwai. And, you know, a few bands that will often use a bowed guitar and stuff. And yeah, I think you're right, because a lot of that music is kind of not lyrical, but I think oh my god, that's really blown my mind because I think, like I say, like, often that guitar is bowed rather than strung or packed or any of those things. And I think that it definitely creates like this sound of, you know, like that amazing kind of minor tone or, yeah, you know, what's it called? Like? Yeah, just that thing where you can? Yeah, we're like, goes directly to your body and makes you feel a certain way.

Bo: Yeah. It's also why they like, you know, the classic horror movie violence that they do is.

Pip: It almost sounds like a scream?

Bo: Yeah, yeah, that's probably why they use it.

Pip: Oh, my God. And that, like, that is one of the things that I really wanted to get at, in this conversation is the idea of you know, that so that close association for me between noises really, really, really, that I find extremely difficult, and how close they often are to noises that I find really soothing. Like, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that idea of the scream, you know, like, I really, you know, like, I feel like there is just this continuum between a scream which I find well, not nice. And then you know, I guitar or something or a sequencer or some kind of tone that's almost exactly the same but and can often be louder, but there's something about it that I find comforting.

Bo: Yeah. Yeah.   

Pip: I thought it could be interesting to say, like, if there are there any noises that you find really hard?

Bo: Yeah, the there's a lot

Pip: Shall we try and make a complete list?

Bo: Oh, fun.

Pip: You go first. Then I'll go.

Bo:  Yeah. Oh, we're gonna say one thing and then

Pip: Let's see if what happens there or do you want to do your whole list first?

Bo: No, I don't have like a full list in my mind. I just

Pip: Can you think of anything?

Bo: I really don't like the sound of cardboard or paper? Yeah, like being scratched or something. And paper is a big one. Like, you know how people are like, Oh, nails on the chalkboard are such a distinct and unique sound that is horrible. It's like, Well, for me it's nails on paper and cardboard. Like that's the sound I can't deal with.

Pip: Oh my gosh, yeah, that's given me the fantods just talking about it. What are someone's writing on paper?

Bo: Writing on paper, if you have like a, like a normal ballpoint pen that isn't running out of ink is fine. But like, as soon as you get to that point where it's mostly the metal on the paper, kind of space that the ink creates between due to being quite a viscous liquid.

Pip: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. Is there a scratchy sound that you like?

Bo: Um, I like the sound of like scratching skin. Yep. But I think that's mostly because my brain associates that. Yeah, like, satisfaction. Yeah.

Pip: Oh, my God. I didn't think of that. That's really true. Yeah. Okay. Is there another sound that you don't like?

Bo: The sound of someone scratching their jeans. I really hate the sound of ... or like someone wearing leggings. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I really hate the texture of leggings. And I really hate the sound that it makes when someone scratches it. And then it's the same with jean material. Yeah. Especially if it's like skinny jeans.

Pip: Yep. And yet the scratching on skins. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Sweet. Sweet.

Bo: What about you? Um,

Pip: Well, you know, my biggest thing is - I'm so embarrassed to say this because it just seems so mean. But I really have trouble with eating noises. Yeah. Like, yeah, I. And it's really funny, because there's certain people's eating noises. I don't have trouble with like, I don't have trouble with your eating noises. Yeah. Like, even and I don't know if that's because I was there when you ate for the first time. But like, I yeah, I could sit with you. You could eat anything. And I would be fine. But yeah, that I find that extremely hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Bo: And I get that because I have that too, usually. But I'm also someone who likes mukbang. Like ASMR. Which is very strange. Yeah. And I feel like doesn't quite mix together.

Pip: You see I've never had the guts to listen to anything like that. Like I find is most of the ASMR I've listened to I find really, really hard. I find that the mouth noises really not good. Like, I find the mouth noises extremely hard. And yeah. But I think I like I like eating.

Bo: Oh, yeah.

Pip: And I know that I'm not the quietest eater . That's the other thing. Like I mean, it's not like, although I do get very self conscious when I'm eating like for noise. It's quite weird. We knew a little you had a lot of trouble with sirens.

Bo: Yeah, I still have. It's because it's that's such such a long prelonged. I think the worst thing is that you can hear them coming. And like you've already got that fear of something loud coming towards you. That is a big machine. Because usually sirens are on like the most sirens you hear in Wellington are mostly fire trucks. And it's such a big hulking machine and you don't know where it's going. You don't know where there's going to stop right beside you. And it's such a specific high pitch tone. That's so continuous. And it sound and then it goes down and then it goes right back up again.

Pip: Yeah.

Bo: Oh, my hand on the table. That's fine.

Pip: We've got some ASMR of our own Yeah, I think they're tricky eh? Yeah. And I guess as well like what you're saying so true, because not only do get the siren sound but there's the associated sounds as well like the they often honk when they're coming through intersection. And then the rattle The size of the machinery and the rattle it also comes along with it as well. And like sometimes there's like scary squealing brake kind of noises as well. I have this weird thing that when I hear a siren I'm not sure I mind the siren by itself so much like I quite like the way it kind of that is one of those really loud noises I really like like I like the way it kind of passes through your body. And I don't know like I also like the way we're it feels like it's gonna explode my eardrums. But also, do you know what I mean? Like I quite I don't know what it is about that like that tantalizing

Bo: He's on the brink.

Pip: On the brinkmanship. Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe it is the on the brink thing. And like I yeah, like I feel like the sirens have got louder.

Bo: Yeah. I think they have. I think it's Wellington's got, like, louder, so has the sirens.

Pip: I think you're right. Um, do you? I'm thinking that you're sort of describing like the siren from a long way away and coming up if an alarm sounds in a building. I was just thinking that time we were recording that ad. Is that do? Are you someone who gets a fright from a southern sound? Or?

Bo: I have a very freeze response. Yeah, things getting scary. So I will very often freeze, which is not what you're supposed to do when alarm goes off.

Pip: Um, do you. I'm wondering if there's any sounds that you absolutely love, like that you really like? Being around?

Bo: Crackling noises. I listened to a lot of ASMR to get to sleep. Yeah, and one of my favorite ones is scalp cleaning. Cause or just, they use this. I think it's powder or like kind of a foaming substance and they push it into the scalp and it makes little tiny bubbles that pop.

Pip: Oh my god.

Bo: Yeah. You don't like it. I love it personally.

Pip: That sounds incredible.

Bo: But um, I think that comes from just like, I really enjoy having my head played with getting massages in my scalp, especially because it makes such a sound. Whereas on the body, it usually like on your skin, you can't really hear the sound of a massage, but on your scalp or your hair follicles kind of squished together and crack a little bit.

Pip: It's really interesting because that you seem to be really aware of the relationship between the sound and that and the experience that might lead you to like it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't feel like I've got that kind of self awareness. Like, yeah, like I say, like, yeah, like, how many weeks ago was it maybe a month ago? It was a March. That's right, when we went and saw Mogwai, and it was probably the second loudest concert I've been to. And like, I was just so confused by myself about what was so incredibly pleasurable about just this wall of noise that went right through your body. And kind of you could feel it in the back of your neck. And like I've mean, I mean, that was part of why I wanted to do this project was to try and work out what it was about that noise. And you know, I guess also also, I think as a person I have like an aversion to working out the psychological reason behind things you know,

Bo: Whereas, I think I'm the opposite.

Pip: Yeah, Yeah. I think we're very different like that. Like, I'm like, What's the body doing? You know, like, why does the body They like it. Whereas I thank you very much like, what does the mind do it? And I think that, um, I don't know, I don't think it says anything about the sounds that we like and don't like. But I do think it's, it is interesting that people experience things differently. Yeah. That was that was a long winded way of saying, isn't it amazing how people experience?

Bo: I don't think it was long-winded I thought it was interesting.

Pip: So would your theory be that the sounds you like have good connotations and the sounds you don't like have bad connotations? Do you think?

Bo: I'd say it's not like 100% of the time that's the case. But I'd say that, for a lot of people, I'd agree with that statement. And at least for myself, I would

Pip: Yeah. So it's like, it's not a visceral kind of thing. It's something that you can explain and you're thinking.

Bo: Yeah, and I think a lot of that thinking is kind of visceral, and a lot of like, point going back to a kind of caveman mindset. Like, that's my not to be overly logical. But um, that's kind of my theory behind like, why people don't like sirens, is because it goes back to that kind of caveman, big, loud, scary thing, kind of mindset. And I think, somewhere in our brains, we're still terrified of anything that sounds bigger, like bigger than us. Like the Bloop in the ocean. Like, people talked about that being one of the scariest sounds ever. And I think that's just because one the unknown. And two, because it sounded massive, then we didn't know where it came from.

Pip: Yeah, so interesting. Because like, I yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because like, I've, I've kind of spend a lot of my time trying to kind of disengage my engage my psychology and my thinking and my feelings and just think about how it feels in my body. But I think that I think you're right, I don't think I think that that's artificial what I'm doing. Like, I think that yeah, I do. I do wonder if there's a psychology at play as well. Like, I think it's also kind of that Buddhist thing, where you're always trying to have experience overthinking, you know what I mean? Like, you're always trying to be, you know, aware awareness over thinking kind of thing. And I think that, maybe, and this is where this is why I think I like sounds so much is because it does seem to have that mainline straight to the emotions for me, you know what I mean? Like, it seems to bypass any thoughts I've got, but what I really love is that the way you're thinking about it, is that an image or a memory seems to be very entwined with the sound itself. Like, and that's what I think will be interesting about this project, just because, you know, like, I'm, I think that, like, I mean, you know, like, when I write those words are just kind of frozen speech, you know, like, that's, that's always what they are. It's like freezing speech. So it's freezing a sound in a way. And I think that because you're dealing with images, it's really interesting to hear you talk about this idea of, yeah, to hear you talk about this idea of the sounds like that. And when I hear this, I see this image and that kind of thing, which I think will be really interesting. Do you have any thoughts about silence?

Bo: I'm iffy with silence because sometimes I feel like silence is the most overbearing sound, which is ironic considering silence is the lack of sound. But silence almost has this pressure to it. Like there have been times where I've been in my room, and there's been nothing, there's not been the sound of mosquitoes buzzing around the sound of crickets, the sound of the power, water plant across the road from our house that buzzes continuously, not the sound of you or dad breathing nothing, and I can almost feel the pressure of that in my ears. And that both comforts and terrifies me, because it almost feels like the pressure in a horror movie before jumpscare And I'm so aware that silence isn't something that can last forever, in most cases.

Pip: And it's such an interesting idea. I like that idea that the silence almost forms a vacuum to be filled. Yeah, I mean, like, it's almost like yeah, like the longer it goes on, the more likely there is to be a sound. And I think that's what I think has been great for me sort of learning about sound is. You know, experience of deafness is often not silence and stuff like that, which I think is really interesting in itself. And it's interesting that you talk about that. We have a water pumping station across the road from us. And I remember the first night, Brent and I slept in this house, you were here as well obviously.  I don't remember it. You probably don't remember. And we turned everything off and suddenly heard this waterpump. And we realized we'd never been in the house without the water pump. And like, I cried, because I was just like, what have we done? But actually, the water pump like I actually quite like it now. Like there was a while where it was turned off, but it's become almost like a womb sound.

Bo: It's like the sound of crashing waves on the beach, but it's just a water pump in my house that never stops. Not it does stop sometimes. It's almost scary.

Pip: Can you do an impression of it?

Bo: Wompwompwompwomp

Pip: That is so good. Thank you. Cause my impression was gonna be wompwompwomp. Oh, they're almost the same.

Bo: Because we've been living with it for so long. It's like, a room mater

Pip: A womb mate. If the if the if the water tower ever wanted us to do anything we just be like, Yes, mother. We've got you. We've got you. Yes. Yes, Master. Yes, we've gotten. And then. So yeah, this idea of silence. And I think that. Yeah, I am. I do hear you what you're saying about that pressure of silence. My dream is to go into one of those places with absolute silence.

Bo: Like almost a sensory deprivation tank?

Pip: Well, yeah. But there's also like, there's this color. I know, this is seen and we're talking about hearing but there's this color black, which is the darkest black. And my understanding is that as well as that they have worked at chambers of absolutely silence as well. And I just think I just can't imagine what yeah, like I'm, I'm quite obsessed with silence. I don't know how I feel in silence. I think I'm similar to you like silence can put me on edge. Like sometimes I do feel like, any minute now. Something's gonna break the silence. And yeah, I think and that's where I think meditating has really helped me is that you know, like, I can use these sensitivities to sound and sensitivities to silence to, you know, as a, what do they say? Like, pull it into the road of meditation, then like, you know, like use it for meditation, which I think is a lot easier because I think I used to. Yeah, I used to find sounds really hard to be around. Like it made me feel electric. Like, kind of my veins are on the outside of my head. Sort of which Yeah, is weird. I don't know. Yeah. What? If you? Like, do you think I'm just thinking about the music that you listen to? Do you think there's a common thread in that?

Bo: Yeah, yeah.

Pip: What do you think?

Bo: Bass.

Pip: Oh, my God, it is your right.

Bo: Yeah. Every single song I listened to has either drums or an electrical noise. That is a heavy bass. Because that is on the topic of favorite sounds from before. That is my all time favorite sound is intense bass.

Pip: Yeah. Because it's interesting because I was just thinking like, one of the standouts in your musical taste is Frank Sinatra. And I think even Michael Buble, but if you think about it, like Frank Sinatra has, I think bass would be one of the things you were talking about with his singing voice, if you know what I mean. Like it definitely feels grounded.

Bo: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Obviously, Michael Buble. He has the big band, which has a lot of bass in it.

Pip: Yeah. We like a lot of bass. Because it's interesting, because like, I think I was trying to work out what my thing was the other week, and I think it's, like when I look like I used to think it was percussion like I used to think it was drums. Like, it was just like a beat, you know, rather than a bass a beat, and, but then listening to it again. Now, I think that it's also around tone like and I don't even know if I'm using the right word when I use tone, but just like a sustained note held, mainly an electronic tone. Like I'm not so keen about what they woodwind not - those things weeep what are those ones called? I don't really like those ones.

Bo: Like a recorder? A flute?

Pip: I mean, like a trumpet. Like, for some reason I find the brass instruments really tricky. But if it's an electronic tone, or a tone or feedback, I really like feedback as well. But yeah, actually, that's so true about the bass, eh? Like I'm just thinking about that music we were listening to you yesterday and everything kind of bass.

Bo: That and like repeating sounds I really like.

Pip: I love repeat repetition to and I do wonder if it's part of my obsession with percussion where words kind of become a beat as well. And like, yeah, I really my favorite kind of song is when we there's too many words to fit into the musical words, I mean, the musical phrase or whatever you call it, like the musical you have to do. And the words are like ba ba, ba, ba, ba, ba,

Bo: Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba

Pip: Oh my gosh, she sound like Eminem.

Bo: Maybe Eminem has the key?

Pip: Maybe. The key to sound? Yeah, um, can you think of anything else we want to talk about?

Bo: Um, there's probably a lot of other interesting things to say about sound

Pip: Come on, say them. I think what's really one of the things I'm always a bit worried about is that I'm quite an amateur, when it comes to this, like, I have read a little bit about sound theory. You know, my main reading has been around the use of sound, and torture and incarceration and control. So like, that's been the main place I've read about sound like, my sound theory generally comes from, yeah, like, ideas of how, yeah, like, you know, non synchronous, you know, sound that is not happening in front of you, and how that can be used to disturb people. And, you know, these ideas of controlling people with sound and that kind of thing. So, but I always feel a bit. I always feel a bit nervous talking about sound. Also, I'm not a musician of any stripe, like, I played the recorder. And that was about it. Whereas I feel like you you've played violin, piano, ukulele, dabbled in guitar. Like, I think that you have a better understanding of music. And it's interesting, like how, whenever you and I talk, these ideas of music and sound kind of come together, if you know, like that often, you know, like that often, we often talk about them together, you know? And I think, yeah, I wonder if that is one of the major times that we're looking at these questions of what we like and what we don't like and what brings us pleasure. And what doesn't bring us pleasure is when we're listening to music.

Bo: It's also like music is the time where we're most aware that we're listening to sound I think.

Pip: It's a really good point. Actually, I like I think, I know, especially for me, so often, if it's an a conversation or something like that, I'm worried about a whole bunch of different things. So the sound is just part of the information that's coming to me. That was I was saying to a friend the other day that yeah, like, I often think when people are speaking, yeah, I'm systematically thinking about the elements of, you know, sound, you know, like, are they speaking loudly? Are they speaking fast? Are they speaking, you know, those kinds of different dials that we turn up? Which I think, you know, yeah, I find interesting as well.

Bo: Because I think I do a very similar thing. Like, as someone who is on Spectrum, like, a lot of the stuff that I'm looking for in sound when speaking to other people is tone. Because I struggle a lot with tone, both myself and within others. So I think the reason that, like I am so intrigued by sound and stuff, and especially the way that humans speak to each other, is just that I don't understand it, really. And everything I know has been learned. Like, I don't really know sarcasm. I, I learned it from TV. Yeah,

Pip: But you know, the sound of it.

Bo: I know the sound of it, that kind of aaah, it's very kind of an arch sarcasm, you know?

Pip: Do you mean that the sound is an arch? Or that it's arch as in it's got that kind of personality?

Bo: It's got that the sound is usually an arch with how people speak?

Pip: Oh my gosh. You're so right.

Bo: That's kind of that that's I overanalyze everything. And I think that's partly because I'm on spectrum, but um with tone that's a massive area where I kind of have too often Yeah, yeah. And that over-analysis has led to a very, not to pat myself on the back unique kind of view of sound and speech.

Pip: Yeah. Yeah, I've I'm quite similar. And I think that it's one of the things that helps me the most in writing is that I'm constantly. Yeah, people are endlessly confusing to me. And I'm constantly trying to look for patterns and read things and yeah, tone and language is something that I often miss, you know, like, I'm, yeah, I have got myself into all sorts of trouble like I. I remember, being in a workshop once and things escalated. I thought they escalated really quickly. And then one of the other people in the workshop said to me, did you not see that coming and I was like, No, I did not see that coming. Do you not hear that the person was getting angry? I was like, No, I did not holy shit. But yeah, I think I think that, yeah, like, I think that you're right. And I'm really interested in this idea of a shape for a sound. So sarcasm is an arch. Yeah. Is there a shape for a joke?

Bo: A joke. Since humor is so subjective and stuff, humor is usually very kind of squiggly almost.

Pip: I always think of it like a bouncing ball. Like it's kind of like bijoing!

Bo: The lead up the setup, and then the punch line.

Pip: Yeah, yeah, I get that. What about something that's like, if someone's telling you off? What does that look like?

Bo: It's very well, it's kind of the opposite of humor. Yeah, exactly. It goes up and then down. But then usually it does have drops in it. Yeah, that go up and then down. And then up is things kind of de-escalate. And then someone says something that escalates things again, and then it goes up and then down, and eventually it kind of plateaus for a period.

Pip: Yeah. I love that. This is a dumb question. But I'll ask you anyway, what sort of shape is Mitski's music?

Bo: Mitski is very kind of, well, she uses a lot of very repetitive notes. So I feel like it is kind of a heartbeat, almost. Kind of that idea of going up and then down and then up and then down. And then usually near the end of her songs, it's a very big increase. Because she does have a tendency with a lot of the music that she makes, and especially like one that I'm thinking of right now is 'Drunk Walk Home'. It does have a very intense, kind of visceral end. Like that song ends with her just screaming like this very intense scream because I think she was in a screamo band. Like a she she could do the rock. What does that say? You know what scream I'm talking about.

Pip: I think I know exactly the scream you're talking about.

Bo: Yeah, that like, why was the first thing that came to mind Insane Clown Posse? I don't think they do.

Pip: They should.

Bo: They should. But I'm that kind of very much that. Oh, that's graining her voice like that's gonna hurt in the morning. But it doesn't, because she's controlled it. Yeah, but it's very much that kind of her songs tend to have a very big finish. Yeah, that once again, kind of plateaus near the top.

Pip: Yeah, that sounds really good. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I think I think that, that discussions useful, do you think that discussion is useful? Like it's given me some ideas, that's for sure.

Bo: I like talking about sound.

Pip: I like talking about sound. I just wonder if we have a think about where we go from here. We can record the process as well. Might as well. I'm just trying to think when we said we'd have it in?

Bo: Was it six weeks?

Pip:  Yeah, six weeks from March the 22nd. John is gonna get in touch with us at the beginning of May. So let me just say, tada, Tada Tada, tada, tada, tada, tada, tada, oh, sorry, I'm singing.

Bo: That's a sound.

Pip: I'm singing. I'm singing. We're recording and I'm singing. Oh. 13th of May, is when we said we'd get it done by.

Bo: Yah, yah.

Pip: So shall we head away and work for a week and then come back to each other?

Bo: Sure.

Pip: Why don't you do some initial sketching? Yeah, I'll do some initial drafting. I quite like to use quite a few samples from here. And I'd also like to quite like to go out and record some sounds as well. And then, yeah, we can go from there.

Bo: Maybe we can find a Wellington siren.

Pip: Oh, don't.

Bo: It would not be hard.

Pip: I know.

Bo: Get somebody to crash into the side of our house.

Pip: I was gonna say don't do anything to make a siren come.

Bo: I think that's the scary to sound to me now. Is someone going round that corner.

Pip: Yeah, that is not great. It's not great. I'm just gonna check and see if we've missed anything else. If we've missed anything out. Doo, doo doo, doo doo doo doo doo agitating and calming. Nope. That sounds good.

Bo: Ooooorgh. I've been yawning so much.

Pip: I know. Cause I'm boring you.

Bo: No I just don't think I'm breathing properly.

Pip: I think I think anxiety can make your yawn as well. Right. Shall we stop it.

Bo: Yeah Bye

Pip: Bye